Thanks so much Ben for all the information. I love your sense of humor it makes reading all the information fun! You are a Wealth of knowledge! Especially, for those of us who are not within reach of your age genre. :) This is like breathing for you and spoon feeding some of us along the journey! Sincerely, Susan Delgado
haha I am very glad it helps. I am trying to create it in a way where it would have helped me when I started. I needed a lot of spoon feeding. Drove me mad not being able to find answers. Hopefully this course will forever change that.
One of the things that Mark Danowsky's article mentions puts a venue straight onto my 'Hell No!' list: where the mag specifically says that they won't be responding to every submission. That's just plain RUDE, and frankly if they can't find the time to send even form rejections, then in my view they're not professional/serious, and their process needs changing.
I agree and tend to avoid these places but they also come from somewhere. A lot of op-ed sections in news outlets will have this policy. Not all, but several I've come across. So if an editor comes from that world they may have picked up that habit along the way. So it might mean that they are overly professional but in the wrong sphere. Or possibly, from their perspective, they find it kinder to avoid rejection letters and just give you an expiration period. It's not something I agree with but I can understand it so long as they allow for simultaneous submissions.
I agree, but I do deviate from this Hell No restriction if the venue's "response via no response" time is under two weeks. For example, I submit to a no-fee online journal that publishes daily. If my submitted poem is not published within a week of the submission it has been rejected. I like that the parameters are clear and that it only takes a week for me to know if my poem has been accepted or not. If the guidelines say something like..."if you don't hear from us in 3-6 months consider your work rejected," then...Hell No.
My Hell No list includes no fees. I agree with your assesment of not paying more than $5. I try to keep submissions to no fees - I have two sets of bookmarks, one for no fees, one for fees.
Among other things on my list is only submitting to places who use Submittable. It just easier for my ADD/ADHD brain.
Also, just poking around a lit mags website, seeing what kind of vibe I get and picking apart their about page/what they are looking for. If they seem too 'hoity toity' (tell me you're trying to be the New Yorker without telling me you trying - and failing - to be the New Yorker), that's a NOPE.
Also an easy to navigate, clean website that doesn't look like it was created last week or better yet - 1995 is calling and wants it's web design back.
I think one of my biggest annoyances is when you submit a story, for whatever reason, you're some how automatically subscribed to their (spammy) email updates. That is a surefire way to make me run for the hills. Give me that option first please and thank you.
Ah I totally get sticking to submittable. I do that fairly often. It's much easier and streamlined. Hopefully once our manager is built it will be even easier and more streamlined! I'mm make sure of it. And totally with you on the hoity-toity. My writing doesn't jive much with that. And gosh. Clean websites. Every time an editor asks me for the main thing to help with submissions I have to say: clean, easy to navigate website. Ahhh, I know with the emails. And now submittable has this thing where I'm being pinged on submissions I made like a year ago because a contest has opened back up. Feels super icky to me.
To answer one of your questions for the comments: Does it matter when in the reading period you submit? That depends on the magazine, of course. If the magazine saves every submission until the reading period is over and then makes decisions, then no, it shouldn't matter. If a magazine (usually with a longer submission window) reads and makes decisions as they go, then it can matter when you submit. Some magazines may fill an issue and then stop accepting work (not nice if there's a fee). Even magazines that read every submission are still likely to be more overwhelmed with submissions as their deadline approaches. In theory, it may not make a difference when you submit. In practice, it might. Submit too early in the reading period, and you might be forgotten. Submit late, and you might be overlooked because they're overwhelmed or nearly full. My best advice is to submit early in the reading period, but closer to the middle than to the end — if you can remember and time it right. But for journals who close submissions after X number, I want to be there on the first day if I really want to be considered. And I might submit right at the deadline if I have to, but I'd rather not be so last-minute. If I know a magazine waits until all submissions are in before reading, I might not stress about when I submit, though how can I know whether they read in the order submissions came in or whether they read in reverse order or alphabetical or what? That's why I shoot for the middle of any reading period if I can. Unless the magazine gives me more insight in their submission guidelines, of course.
Haha OK I will concede that, if you know a lot about how the lit mag reads their submissions, you could nail down a slight advantage. However, I think this sort of gymnastics doesn't yield enough to make it worth the time it would take to try to suss that out or the organizational fortitude to nail every submission smack in the middle of reading periods. Most lit mags I know with issues don't confirm enough pieces within the reading period to ignore a great piece that comes in at the end. I feel as though there are so many unknowable variables here for such a slight and random advantage. I think aiming for the middle is a reasonable plan. Just too often I talk to editors who will make room for a good piece when they find it or not finalize issues until after a period has elapsed. But I'll get into this a bit more on Friday. I appreciate the thought you've put into it. I'm gonna start asking editors now and see what's up. Just out of curiosity haha. I don't think I'd ever share that information publicly because it would confuse people or give false hope that a piece that doesn't fit a lit mag would have a better chance at a certain time. I'm going to try to focus instead on how to nail the one that fits to the right wall
Hi! First of all, this whole series is such a wonderful resource, and the humor certainly helps :) Second, sorry for the 87025 questions.
If you have time/interest, I's love to hear about etiquette/expectations around encouraging rejections. I'm in the frustrating (and admittedly humble-braggy) spot of getting lots of personalized, warm rejections, semi-finalisted, long-listed, short-listed...but not making it into the mag. I haven't seen much if any advice in this space.
Some specific questions:
I don't respond to friendly form rejections (why bog staff down with extra email) but do respond to personalized notes. Should I be responding to all/none?
Are there editor pet peeves to avoid when trying one of those places again?
If I get specific, gushing praise on a story from all sorts of magazines followed by "not right for this theme" "no space in this issue"...is it bad form to try the rounds again with the same story (repolished) a few years later? I'm thinking specifically for MFA/undergrad mags with high editor turnover, but also generally.
If I've submitted every good story I've ever written (that fits their guidelines) to a magazine I love, and gotten longlisted or great feedback with each, but no pubs...is my only option to appear in that mag to (groan) write more? I took me a decade to get 6-7 stories to a publishable place, and I really want to see these stories find homes before I start revising/polishing/obsessing over new work.
Would love any insight you feel like sharing, and whether you touch on these topics on not, truly appreciate all the work you're putting into this very helpful series!
Hi Swati. These are such good questions. I'm going back through lessons now and see you also posted these on the latest. No problem. So this weekend I will be publishing a mid-month Q&A and would love to include these questions with answers in that post. If you don't mind waiting, I can be a bit more thorough there
Maybe my timing is off with these questions, but I'll ask anyway & you can answer or tell me in another class if you are covering this stuff.
1. Rightly or not, I have the feeling that university run journals are looking to publish student writers, or MFA candidates & may not be interested in poetry outside of those parameters. What do you think?
2. Am I wrong or did you mention sample spreadsheets somewhere along the line?
Hi James, I'd have been inclined to think that too. But I did get an acceptance to a University run journal last year & although I have an Honours degree in Theatre Studies from some time ago (ahem), I'm not a current student. I'd say if you have work that you feel resonates with their aesthetic, submit it. Don't self-reject. :)
I reckon that more than qualifies you - lol! I guess the caveat is when they say they're only open to undergrads or other narrowed demographics, prob best to submit elsewhere. :)
Hi James, 1. I can tell you this is not true. I have been published in many University Affiliated lit mags and I have no MFA and graduated with a bachelors 14 years ago. I mention in lesson 1 how I think this misconception happens. That MFA students are taught to read writing a certain way — then they read and are biased to that sort of writing. But it's not a trick. Its mostly about what I said regarding craft in lesson 1. But never let a university affiliation deter you. If you think of it as an assignment for them, their assignment is to find good writing, not promote their peers. and 2. Yes, at the top there is a link to the spreadsheet of journals and further reading. And in the middle is one about things that are missing from guidelines pages.
Thanks for the lesson. I do have a question about whether or not you think editors should put something in their guidelines that they will respond back to a message within a certain time period (not the question about don’t query them until….)? I have had been ghosted by magazines that say, “In Progress” on Submittable but it’s been six months or more. I’d like at least a response back at 6 months saying it’s “still in process of being considered”. What do you think?
I do think that editors who have that note seem more considerate. Like, by saying, "you can email us about a submission" it is acknowledging they can get behind and want you to know they are attentive to this. But gosh, I've had plenty of way too long responses. I have one in my submittable that is over 3 years old at this point. From a lit mag that is still running! I think a response in six months would be nice. But also, if it takes a year, just say it takes a year. If a lit mag has no response time or says they won't respond unless it is an acceptance, I don't really bother. I tend to not report these things only because I don't know what is going on behind the scenes. Editorial boards are not trained professionals. They are just people. Maybe they had a life event that set them back. Maybe the university cut funding. Maybe it changed hands. I tend to just move on unless it seems like they have a pattern of doing this. There is a newer website called Blacklist Lit that is documenting this sort of thing if you want to check them out.
Yeah, that's super-rude, Kim. I agree about putting them on your blacklist. Makes you wonder if they really care about their journal anymore, or if it's become a ghost ship.
Yeah, I don't know if I mentioned it above. But yes that's my solution. Nix them and move on. Withdraw the piece and include in your note about it being so long so they're aware and on to the next.
I have 2 of these, too. Both over 12 months now. One is a piece I don't even like anymore - lol! It's extra-rude when you query not hearing from them and STILL don't get a reply. I withdrew one that had work I was still circulating - to journals I now cared more about. I didn't want a surprise acceptance coming in that would jeopardize the newer submissions.
Thanks so much for this wonderful resource! Submitting has always been the most daunting part of the writing process to me, and I've been loving these posts.
I have a question sort of relating to etiquette around what qualifies as "previously published." Sometimes I have a fragment or scene that I really like and think could stand on its own, but could also become part of a longer piece later on. Is it considered bad form to publish a fragment as like a flash piece or something, and then later incorporate it into a longer story? Would the whole new story be considered "previously published" if a small part of it had appeared as a flash or prose piece?
I think that is perfectly fine. Especially if the flash bit comes first. Some reaaaally picky editors may disagree with me but the longer piece is entirely new so, I wouldn't consider this previously published, no.
Thanks so much for doing this, I am a bit behind in reading your lessons but I will catch up on all of them. This is very useful. And I like it when you say we writers deserve respect. (Even if the editor didn't think that our works are to their tastes) Over the years, I had a few rather disappointing experiences. I submitted to a Lit mag that required a reading fee but didn't respond at all. It's still 'in progress' status on Submittable till today, for about a year already. Neither did the editor deign to respond to my follow up. I signed up for a writing class with a Lit mag and the class didn't happen at all. I signed up for a writing class with a first novel competition organiser, it did happen this time but the 'teacher' was practically just reading from a craft book, showed us lecture slides that were cut and pasted, word for word, from the contents of the craft book. A very well known craft book by the way, so I don't know how she thought she could get away with it. Sometimes I want to support a certain magazine by doing more, for example subscribing to them even if it means a fee is involved. But experiences like these held me back, and I am sorry to say, made me a bit cynical.
I like your idea of a Hell-No list. This is a very useful method to remind myself which are the ones I should really try submitting to, and which are the ones I should just avoid.
Hi Tiffany, I totally get this apprehension. It the last week of this course I will do a lesson about analyzing a lit mag for quality. Hopefully it will help paint a clearer picture of those worth following along with or not.
"It DOESN’T matter if you’ve been published before. Over and over, I hear editors talk about how much they love being a writer’s first publication." I believe you, but also: don't editors love writers who come with a big social media following? Nothing wrong with that except for the social part. And, err, the media part. I know I'm dating myself here. (Don't tell my husband!)
Hahaha I don't think so. I mean, maybe? But if an editor really wanted to target something like they, they could solicit. Also most of the writers with the most social media followings are genre-fiction and romance writers. Within the industry, lit mags would probably lose more credibility than they'd gain if they published someone who didn't fit their quality and vibe for the sake of a big following. Also, gosh, haha if editors wanted that I'd hope they put more effort into their socials but plenty do not.
Thanks for fucking with me, Benjie. It was good for me ;)
anytime
You could say that Benjamin fucked around, and we found out.
Thanks so much Ben for all the information. I love your sense of humor it makes reading all the information fun! You are a Wealth of knowledge! Especially, for those of us who are not within reach of your age genre. :) This is like breathing for you and spoon feeding some of us along the journey! Sincerely, Susan Delgado
haha I am very glad it helps. I am trying to create it in a way where it would have helped me when I started. I needed a lot of spoon feeding. Drove me mad not being able to find answers. Hopefully this course will forever change that.
One of the things that Mark Danowsky's article mentions puts a venue straight onto my 'Hell No!' list: where the mag specifically says that they won't be responding to every submission. That's just plain RUDE, and frankly if they can't find the time to send even form rejections, then in my view they're not professional/serious, and their process needs changing.
I agree and tend to avoid these places but they also come from somewhere. A lot of op-ed sections in news outlets will have this policy. Not all, but several I've come across. So if an editor comes from that world they may have picked up that habit along the way. So it might mean that they are overly professional but in the wrong sphere. Or possibly, from their perspective, they find it kinder to avoid rejection letters and just give you an expiration period. It's not something I agree with but I can understand it so long as they allow for simultaneous submissions.
I agree, but I do deviate from this Hell No restriction if the venue's "response via no response" time is under two weeks. For example, I submit to a no-fee online journal that publishes daily. If my submitted poem is not published within a week of the submission it has been rejected. I like that the parameters are clear and that it only takes a week for me to know if my poem has been accepted or not. If the guidelines say something like..."if you don't hear from us in 3-6 months consider your work rejected," then...Hell No.
My Hell No list includes no fees. I agree with your assesment of not paying more than $5. I try to keep submissions to no fees - I have two sets of bookmarks, one for no fees, one for fees.
Among other things on my list is only submitting to places who use Submittable. It just easier for my ADD/ADHD brain.
Also, just poking around a lit mags website, seeing what kind of vibe I get and picking apart their about page/what they are looking for. If they seem too 'hoity toity' (tell me you're trying to be the New Yorker without telling me you trying - and failing - to be the New Yorker), that's a NOPE.
Also an easy to navigate, clean website that doesn't look like it was created last week or better yet - 1995 is calling and wants it's web design back.
I think one of my biggest annoyances is when you submit a story, for whatever reason, you're some how automatically subscribed to their (spammy) email updates. That is a surefire way to make me run for the hills. Give me that option first please and thank you.
Ah I totally get sticking to submittable. I do that fairly often. It's much easier and streamlined. Hopefully once our manager is built it will be even easier and more streamlined! I'mm make sure of it. And totally with you on the hoity-toity. My writing doesn't jive much with that. And gosh. Clean websites. Every time an editor asks me for the main thing to help with submissions I have to say: clean, easy to navigate website. Ahhh, I know with the emails. And now submittable has this thing where I'm being pinged on submissions I made like a year ago because a contest has opened back up. Feels super icky to me.
To answer one of your questions for the comments: Does it matter when in the reading period you submit? That depends on the magazine, of course. If the magazine saves every submission until the reading period is over and then makes decisions, then no, it shouldn't matter. If a magazine (usually with a longer submission window) reads and makes decisions as they go, then it can matter when you submit. Some magazines may fill an issue and then stop accepting work (not nice if there's a fee). Even magazines that read every submission are still likely to be more overwhelmed with submissions as their deadline approaches. In theory, it may not make a difference when you submit. In practice, it might. Submit too early in the reading period, and you might be forgotten. Submit late, and you might be overlooked because they're overwhelmed or nearly full. My best advice is to submit early in the reading period, but closer to the middle than to the end — if you can remember and time it right. But for journals who close submissions after X number, I want to be there on the first day if I really want to be considered. And I might submit right at the deadline if I have to, but I'd rather not be so last-minute. If I know a magazine waits until all submissions are in before reading, I might not stress about when I submit, though how can I know whether they read in the order submissions came in or whether they read in reverse order or alphabetical or what? That's why I shoot for the middle of any reading period if I can. Unless the magazine gives me more insight in their submission guidelines, of course.
Haha OK I will concede that, if you know a lot about how the lit mag reads their submissions, you could nail down a slight advantage. However, I think this sort of gymnastics doesn't yield enough to make it worth the time it would take to try to suss that out or the organizational fortitude to nail every submission smack in the middle of reading periods. Most lit mags I know with issues don't confirm enough pieces within the reading period to ignore a great piece that comes in at the end. I feel as though there are so many unknowable variables here for such a slight and random advantage. I think aiming for the middle is a reasonable plan. Just too often I talk to editors who will make room for a good piece when they find it or not finalize issues until after a period has elapsed. But I'll get into this a bit more on Friday. I appreciate the thought you've put into it. I'm gonna start asking editors now and see what's up. Just out of curiosity haha. I don't think I'd ever share that information publicly because it would confuse people or give false hope that a piece that doesn't fit a lit mag would have a better chance at a certain time. I'm going to try to focus instead on how to nail the one that fits to the right wall
Thank you, Ben for this priceless guide, and thank you, Nikita for these fantastic graphics!
He's a damn genius, isn't he?
Hi! First of all, this whole series is such a wonderful resource, and the humor certainly helps :) Second, sorry for the 87025 questions.
If you have time/interest, I's love to hear about etiquette/expectations around encouraging rejections. I'm in the frustrating (and admittedly humble-braggy) spot of getting lots of personalized, warm rejections, semi-finalisted, long-listed, short-listed...but not making it into the mag. I haven't seen much if any advice in this space.
Some specific questions:
I don't respond to friendly form rejections (why bog staff down with extra email) but do respond to personalized notes. Should I be responding to all/none?
Are there editor pet peeves to avoid when trying one of those places again?
If I get specific, gushing praise on a story from all sorts of magazines followed by "not right for this theme" "no space in this issue"...is it bad form to try the rounds again with the same story (repolished) a few years later? I'm thinking specifically for MFA/undergrad mags with high editor turnover, but also generally.
If I've submitted every good story I've ever written (that fits their guidelines) to a magazine I love, and gotten longlisted or great feedback with each, but no pubs...is my only option to appear in that mag to (groan) write more? I took me a decade to get 6-7 stories to a publishable place, and I really want to see these stories find homes before I start revising/polishing/obsessing over new work.
Would love any insight you feel like sharing, and whether you touch on these topics on not, truly appreciate all the work you're putting into this very helpful series!
Hi Swati. These are such good questions. I'm going back through lessons now and see you also posted these on the latest. No problem. So this weekend I will be publishing a mid-month Q&A and would love to include these questions with answers in that post. If you don't mind waiting, I can be a bit more thorough there
That would be wonderful, thank you!
Maybe my timing is off with these questions, but I'll ask anyway & you can answer or tell me in another class if you are covering this stuff.
1. Rightly or not, I have the feeling that university run journals are looking to publish student writers, or MFA candidates & may not be interested in poetry outside of those parameters. What do you think?
2. Am I wrong or did you mention sample spreadsheets somewhere along the line?
Hi James, I'd have been inclined to think that too. But I did get an acceptance to a University run journal last year & although I have an Honours degree in Theatre Studies from some time ago (ahem), I'm not a current student. I'd say if you have work that you feel resonates with their aesthetic, submit it. Don't self-reject. :)
Thanks Melissa! My degree is an ancient one in English Lit with some graduate work in teaching & poetry.
I reckon that more than qualifies you - lol! I guess the caveat is when they say they're only open to undergrads or other narrowed demographics, prob best to submit elsewhere. :)
Hi James, 1. I can tell you this is not true. I have been published in many University Affiliated lit mags and I have no MFA and graduated with a bachelors 14 years ago. I mention in lesson 1 how I think this misconception happens. That MFA students are taught to read writing a certain way — then they read and are biased to that sort of writing. But it's not a trick. Its mostly about what I said regarding craft in lesson 1. But never let a university affiliation deter you. If you think of it as an assignment for them, their assignment is to find good writing, not promote their peers. and 2. Yes, at the top there is a link to the spreadsheet of journals and further reading. And in the middle is one about things that are missing from guidelines pages.
Thanks for the lesson. I do have a question about whether or not you think editors should put something in their guidelines that they will respond back to a message within a certain time period (not the question about don’t query them until….)? I have had been ghosted by magazines that say, “In Progress” on Submittable but it’s been six months or more. I’d like at least a response back at 6 months saying it’s “still in process of being considered”. What do you think?
I do think that editors who have that note seem more considerate. Like, by saying, "you can email us about a submission" it is acknowledging they can get behind and want you to know they are attentive to this. But gosh, I've had plenty of way too long responses. I have one in my submittable that is over 3 years old at this point. From a lit mag that is still running! I think a response in six months would be nice. But also, if it takes a year, just say it takes a year. If a lit mag has no response time or says they won't respond unless it is an acceptance, I don't really bother. I tend to not report these things only because I don't know what is going on behind the scenes. Editorial boards are not trained professionals. They are just people. Maybe they had a life event that set them back. Maybe the university cut funding. Maybe it changed hands. I tend to just move on unless it seems like they have a pattern of doing this. There is a newer website called Blacklist Lit that is documenting this sort of thing if you want to check them out.
I've got 2 of those now. I emailed them and haven't heard back. As a result, I won't submit to them again.
Yeah, that's super-rude, Kim. I agree about putting them on your blacklist. Makes you wonder if they really care about their journal anymore, or if it's become a ghost ship.
Yeah, I don't know if I mentioned it above. But yes that's my solution. Nix them and move on. Withdraw the piece and include in your note about it being so long so they're aware and on to the next.
I have 2 of these, too. Both over 12 months now. One is a piece I don't even like anymore - lol! It's extra-rude when you query not hearing from them and STILL don't get a reply. I withdrew one that had work I was still circulating - to journals I now cared more about. I didn't want a surprise acceptance coming in that would jeopardize the newer submissions.
I've been loving your posts to date. So clear and thorough. Much appreciated!
Hurray! Thank you. I appreciate that a lot. I hope to keep it up throughout the rest of the course.
Thank you kindly Ben. Good stuff here. Always happy to get practical tips like the hide feature for Chill Subs.
It’s one of my favorites.
Awesome information that will save me time and money. I will be using Chill Subs to make a Hell No list because it’s better than my method!
Yay! So glad it helped. Haha it was a big one
Thanks so much for this wonderful resource! Submitting has always been the most daunting part of the writing process to me, and I've been loving these posts.
I have a question sort of relating to etiquette around what qualifies as "previously published." Sometimes I have a fragment or scene that I really like and think could stand on its own, but could also become part of a longer piece later on. Is it considered bad form to publish a fragment as like a flash piece or something, and then later incorporate it into a longer story? Would the whole new story be considered "previously published" if a small part of it had appeared as a flash or prose piece?
I think that is perfectly fine. Especially if the flash bit comes first. Some reaaaally picky editors may disagree with me but the longer piece is entirely new so, I wouldn't consider this previously published, no.
Thanks so much for doing this, I am a bit behind in reading your lessons but I will catch up on all of them. This is very useful. And I like it when you say we writers deserve respect. (Even if the editor didn't think that our works are to their tastes) Over the years, I had a few rather disappointing experiences. I submitted to a Lit mag that required a reading fee but didn't respond at all. It's still 'in progress' status on Submittable till today, for about a year already. Neither did the editor deign to respond to my follow up. I signed up for a writing class with a Lit mag and the class didn't happen at all. I signed up for a writing class with a first novel competition organiser, it did happen this time but the 'teacher' was practically just reading from a craft book, showed us lecture slides that were cut and pasted, word for word, from the contents of the craft book. A very well known craft book by the way, so I don't know how she thought she could get away with it. Sometimes I want to support a certain magazine by doing more, for example subscribing to them even if it means a fee is involved. But experiences like these held me back, and I am sorry to say, made me a bit cynical.
I like your idea of a Hell-No list. This is a very useful method to remind myself which are the ones I should really try submitting to, and which are the ones I should just avoid.
Hi Tiffany, I totally get this apprehension. It the last week of this course I will do a lesson about analyzing a lit mag for quality. Hopefully it will help paint a clearer picture of those worth following along with or not.
Oh yes, for certain.
"It DOESN’T matter if you’ve been published before. Over and over, I hear editors talk about how much they love being a writer’s first publication." I believe you, but also: don't editors love writers who come with a big social media following? Nothing wrong with that except for the social part. And, err, the media part. I know I'm dating myself here. (Don't tell my husband!)
Hahaha I don't think so. I mean, maybe? But if an editor really wanted to target something like they, they could solicit. Also most of the writers with the most social media followings are genre-fiction and romance writers. Within the industry, lit mags would probably lose more credibility than they'd gain if they published someone who didn't fit their quality and vibe for the sake of a big following. Also, gosh, haha if editors wanted that I'd hope they put more effort into their socials but plenty do not.